"Inspired to Invest" Real Estate Investing Podcast

Real Estate Investing Made Simple 5 Expert Tips You NEED

• Serena Holmes • Episode 69

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Real estate investing made simple 5 expert tips you NEED! Watch until the end to hear this week's guest, Natasha Phipps, sharing her top real estate tips.

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If you've ever wondered how to navigate the volatile world of real estate investing, this is an episode of "Inspired To Invest" you can't miss!

Natasha Phipps is a seasoned real estate investor and realtor from Calgary with over two decades of experience. In this episode of "Inspired to Invest", Natasha opens up about her unique journey from the oil and gas industry to real estate, sharing invaluable lessons from her parents' financial and construction backgrounds. 

Discover how Natasha leveraged bank money to build a robust real estate portfolio, and learn about the strategic pivots she's made to thrive in Alberta's unpredictable market. 

Get ready for some jaw-dropping stories as Natasha recounts the unusual and often bizarre experiences she's encountered in her career. From unexpected property discoveries to navigating the legal complexities of court sales and raising capital for a real estate investment trust, Natasha provides a wealth of knowledge and advice. 

We also dive into the legal structures required to accept investments from non-accredited investors in Canada, the benefits of investing in Alberta real estate, and the strategies behind growing an investment portfolio with targeted returns. Don't miss Natasha’s insights on making real estate investing more accessible and her proudest moments in the industry.

To connect with Natasha, go to @natasha_phipps or @wealthsharereit on social as well as https://wealthshare.ca online.

Thank you to Giancarlo Carangelo from Proventure Real Estate Corp for supporting this month's episodes. To learn more about how to scale your real estate investment portfolio with their support and guidance, go to https://www.realproventure.com/ online, @real_proventure or @carangelorealestate on social.

Need support underwriting potential property investments? Check out PropertyCast.io - https://propertycast.io?via=serena

“Inspired to Invest” is proud to support the Beyond Success Program, a not-for-profit financial literacy program for students, launched by More To Give & MAK Investments. Find out more at @more2give.ca.

 Join us again Oct. 23 to learn about international real estate investing opportunities, value and big results! 

Thanks again for tuning in & remember, "when you invest in yourself, the sky's the limit!"

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Serena Holmes:

Welcome to the Inspired to Invest podcast, where we're sharing stories from real estate investors and how investing has changed their lives. This episode of the Inspire to Invest podcast has been brought to you by ProVenture Real Estate Corp. Hi everybody, welcome to Inspire to Invest. I have Natasha Phipps here from Calgary today. She's been investing in real estate for 22 years and she's been addicted ever since. She is an investor-focused realtor and has been servicing clients for the past 16 years, specifically with clients that want to grow their wealth through real estate. More recently, she's a co-founder and CEO of WellShare Real Estate Investment Trust, which provides a passive avenue for Canadians to invest in multifamily real estate in an accessible way, and their portfolio is focused in Alberta. So thank you for your time today. How are you Awesome? Thanks so much for having me. So, in terms of where you got started with real estate, what was really your catalyst Like? It sounds like you've really dedicated your entire career to this. Was there someone that you know shone a light on this to you early on?

Natasha Phipps:

Also just doing some mental math. I think it's been about 24 years. Okay, I got to redo my bio, okay, so, so two things as to how I got into real estate. So I grew up in the country you know, grew up on an acreage and of course, once you're done high school you want to move into the city, right? And?

Natasha Phipps:

And my mom worked for Scotiabank, she was a personal banker there and I remember her sitting me down at the table and showing me how a mortgage works and how, if I was going to go rent a property which was what I was going to do with a friend I was going to be paying down someone else's mortgage and she showed me like an amortization schedule and, um, so I was very, very fortunate that, um, at that time my dad was in the construction space, still is in in new home construction here in Calgary and they helped me buy my first property. And at that time you kind of could not make money in real estate and things really kind of blew up from there. But it was really learning that like leveraging the bank's money at such a young age. That was like a light bulb moment for me even then. So that was really the first thing that caught my attention, that's huge.

Serena Holmes:

And then, when did you decide to get your real estate license and help support other people and grow their portfolios?

Natasha Phipps:

So after that first property I bought and sold, and bought and sold. Didn't realize I could own more than one property at the time, which is too bad because mortgages were assumable then it was. It was much easier to grow a portfolio. But I started my university career and through university I was working in the oil and gas industry like like most Albertans were at the time and just hated kind of the nine to five thing.

Natasha Phipps:

It just wasn't for me. I was bored out of my mind, finished my marketing degree and right away got my real estate license. But at that point I had done considerably well in real estate and was making more than working my full time job. And what I kind of learned after five years I was almost like irritated that I didn't know, and so I really wanted to share what I was learning, because then there was no internet of information and millions of YouTube videos and podcasts like this, and so the information felt like a secret and I really wanted to make that my niche. So from day one I was an investor who is helping other investors selling real estate, and that built upon itself over the years.

Serena Holmes:

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that that is so smart and I think that's something that I've even thought, that I've had this passion for real estate. But real estate is just a tool to really build wealth and to kind of create this lifestyle that you want and the freedom and things like that, right? So I think that it's just a mindset shift that you're not just looking for a roof over your head. It's like how can I leverage this to really create the entire life that you want? Right Now, when you're looking at your real estate portfolio and everything that you have done, what would you say is something that you're most proud of or something that you look at as your biggest success?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah. So, being in the Alberta market, we have learned to pivot here and we have followed, you know, the real estate cycle here several times now through my career and, honestly, the largest lesson I have learned and the moments I look back on that were the smartest I'm the most proud of is when I, you know, said no, this is not a good idea right now, or it's time to change gears, this is not going to work. Because all the signals are telling me, even though everyone is still kind of feeling excited about this, listening to that and paying attention to those indicators. Learning the economics is so important.

Natasha Phipps:

I have been with RAINN as a member for 10 years and it's changed a lot over the years. But what I love about it is that we do need to consider the economics and being able to pivot and adapt has saved us so many times. And also it's usually people's largest like lesson in real estate when they refuse to change or adapt and they got caught in that Right. So the thing I would say I'm most proud of over the years is being able to pivot, adapt. Even though I might love what I'm doing, you still got to pay attention to what's going on out there.

Serena Holmes:

Yeah and think forward. I mean, there was a realtor that I saw speak recently that's actually from Calgary as well and he was talking about, you know, living through 2015 and you know, when Alberta oil and gas were really impacted and people were selling properties like 40% below market value and losing their shirt and stuff like that. But he was kind of saying, based on his study of economics and you know holes in the ground and things like that, that he was kind of kind of thinking like what could happen in Toronto based on what happened in Calgary and like just the impact that the condo market might see in the next couple of years. Based on what he follows when it comes to like economics and politics and stuff like that. It was so smart like we don't have a crystal ball. There's a lot of things that we don't know, but if you keep your ear to the ground, there are ways that you can maybe minimize that impact on yourself or investors that you're working with right.

Natasha Phipps:

Oh, absolutely. I mean I think we all got to remember also to think long term right Through the difficult times, the volatile times, really, true wealth is built over decades of time, but it can feel very much like the sky is falling in the short term period. So it's it's important to remember that, but aligning the strategy with the cycle, like what is going on and what strategy works, because there's always something that works it just might not be what your first instinct is.

Serena Holmes:

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Now, when you look at some of those challenges and talking about these difficult times, what do you think is one of the biggest challenges that you've experienced growing your portfolio and how did you overcome it at that time?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah, I mean, oh God, I mean there's been so many challenges. I think at times the largest challenge, too, is the kind of keeping up with what everyone else seems to be doing, that that can be difficult at times. Keeping up with what everyone else seems to be doing, that that that can be difficult at times. For me, the kind of largest personal challenges were, you know, working full time, raising young kids, trying to do it all and, you know, do it all. Well, those have probably been my largest challenges.

Natasha Phipps:

I feel like I've been pretty strategic with kind of the strategies we have chosen over the years and the you know road bumps along the way. We've all had those. But the largest challenges have actually been sort of probably more like balancing everything and like I always talk to my kids a lot about what we're doing and why we're doing it, but at the same time it's, you know, that guilt that am I doing the right thing? Am I home enough? Am I? You know, just this weekend, for example, I'm missing my daughter's birthday and that's a big deal and it's a huge sacrifice. So my largest challenges have probably been around that.

Natasha Phipps:

Honestly, yeah, I very much head down and work and then look up and go, oh crap, like I missed the whole day or I or I forgot about something or whatever. So that's been my largest, I would say, personal challenge, trying to build this. But and then also, just you know, learning to find people with opposite skill sets of you. I would say in my younger days I was not good at that. Now I've learned and I know like, really well, okay, I'm not good at this, I'm going to go find the person who is, and so you make those mistakes when you're younger and as you get, hopefully, more wise and smarter, as you get older, you learn from that. And so that was something I really struggled with when I was younger, because I kind of had this like do it all mentality and and I, you know, conquer the world myself, but that's not the most efficient way or smart way. So that's been a big thing.

Serena Holmes:

I've definitely like I can resonate to both of those points completely. I'm just going to take a really brief break for a word from our sponsors and, of course, thank you to your business for sponsoring this past month, and we'll be right back.

Giancarlo Carangelo:

At ProVenture, we are committed to helping individuals achieve their real estate goals all across the country. Whether you're just starting or looking to expand your investment portfolio, our tried and proven methods are designed to help guide you every step of the way. With our expert support, navigating the complexities of the real estate market becomes an opportunity for growth and success. Let's turn your real estate ambitions into a reality.

Serena Holmes:

Thanks again for following along with this episode of Inspired to Invest. In addition to real estate investing and running my own brand experience agency for 18 years, I also published a book called the Accidental Entrepreneur in October of 2021. This is my story and it chronicles how I turned tragedy into triumph to embrace my destiny in entrepreneurship. If you're interested in picking up a copy, you can find the link at serenahomesrealtorcom and you can also find my link tree with all of the retailers in the details below. Thanks again for your support.

Serena Holmes:

Welcome to the Wealth Club, an exclusive community dedicated to elevating your journey towards financial freedom, well-being and success. The journey to 1% starts here. Join like-minded leaders and commit to growth for the mind, body, bankroll and soul. Learn all the proven techniques to change your life forever with direct access to a massive team of more than 10 tried and true experts. Direct access to a massive team of more than 10 tried and true experts. Moreover, members enjoy priority access to investment opportunities, job openings and partnerships within the community. For just $1 a day, members gain entry to specialized forums covering a wide spectrum of fields, discover diverse income streams, new opportunities, collaborations and employment. Partake in weekly Zoom calls with our team team and join monthly live Q&A sessions. Compete and win cash prizes. Active members top the leaderboard for monthly rewards. Ready to get started? Join today to unlock your true potential. To sign up, go to scrollcom forward slash.

Serena Holmes:

The wealth club Inspired to Invest is proud to support the Beyond Success program. In today's complex world, it's absolutely crucial for our youth to learn how to take charge of their financial future. We believe that every young person deserves access to accurate, practical financial information. Designed to bridge the gap, the Beyond Success program leverages a comprehensive educational boot camp to equip young minds with essential financial literacy skills. At Beyond Success, it's not just about teaching financial literacy. It's also about fostering a foundation for a prosperous and empowered future. Join us Together, we can build a brighter financial future for the next generations. Join us Together, we can build a brighter financial future for the next generations. Hey, everybody, welcome back to inspire to invest. I have natasha phipps from wealth chair today and phipps real estate and we're talking about some of the cycles that she's been through as a real estate investor as well as a licensed realtor in alberta, and one of the things I always like to ask people is what's the craziest thing that you've ever experienced as a real estate investor?

Natasha Phipps:

okay. So I was thinking about this too. Um, we did a renovation, we've done a lot of projects, um, and I still have this house. We found a like a secret sort of room in the basement. This house is not that old, I mean, it's it's eighties, which I I guess you know but in the basement there was a spot where we we fully gutted it, we put in a secondary suite great project, awesome, burr but in the basement there is and this, this room. I still think about this room, cause we couldn't quite get in there but you could see in it and it's like cinder blocked around outside of the foundation. So the foundation wall is there and then it's cinder blocked around. Um, so that was one kind of really uh funny thing. Um, that I'm still curious. What's in there?

Natasha Phipps:

I've had some crazy experiences going into properties. Um, you know, I have found a lot of uh adult things you should not be finding on showings, for example, when you're going into people's homes, but nothing too crazy other than more just like unusual type of things like that. But yeah, room was the weirdest thing I found. In a reno we have acquired properties that people have passed away in and you get to go through you know all of their belongings and that is a really weird experience, a crazy experience. It it feels very intimate but at the same time, like you, kind of got to go through everything and my dad's garage he still has like boxes of records up there from this one project that we did, um, so yeah, you just never know what you're gonna find, those little treasures along the way, um, but those are kind of been the weirdest things we've encountered.

Serena Holmes:

That keeps things interesting. Obviously you have such a robust career on both ends of the spectrum. What would you say is some of the best advice that you've ever been given?

Natasha Phipps:

oh gosh, so much. Um. You know, I think the best advice ever been given at times, usually, of struggle or challenge, is to remember your value, to remember what you bring to the table. It's really easy to get beat up in this space and you know, being in sales, you don't have a lot of security. You don't have, you know, a fallback. Really Fallback is our real estate.

Natasha Phipps:

And so best piece of advice, honestly, has been to like just keep going, believe in what you're doing, um, working through the challenging times and the difficult times, it you grow so much, you learn so much about yourself, and so just keep going, um, and one foot in front of the other kind of thing, and and I know that just sounds so simple, but it is truly um, uh, really what you need to do and the you surprise yourself right, like even, how quickly things can turn around in times of challenge. If you just put one foot in front of the other, um, and and focus on what your thoughts are doing, because what your thoughts are doing is what you're going to create and, um, in a short period of time, you can really turn things around. So, honestly, just keep going, think long term and just put one foot in front of the other and things will turn around very quickly for you.

Serena Holmes:

Now, just in terms of your real estate investment trust, can you talk a little bit more about how that kind of came to be and what your plans are with that, because it's not like everyone just kind of decides this is something they're going to do. This is a pretty big undertaking, right?

Natasha Phipps:

Massive undertaking. Yes, so, like a lot of things in real estate, a unicorn property presented itself a few years ago and we had always been my husband and I had always been in the residential space. We have done every strategy you can probably think of on the residential side and really wanted to jump up into multifamily. And so this building was coming up to court sale, which I knew about well in advance and it was that unicorn building that you've been waiting for. But it was a court sale which made it challenging, and I did everything in terms of due diligence on the property, the best I could, went to our network and put together the opportunity. We raised the capital for that acquisition it was just over $8 million in like a one-hour Zoom meeting. There was so much interest.

Natasha Phipps:

Everybody could see what we could see in this property. It was one of those kind of no-brainer ones, but I learned two things really quickly. One was half the people wanted to use registered funds. Not necessarily everybody was accredited. They were maybe close but not quite or they weren't sure, and so that brought some questions pretty quickly as to OK, what, what need can we service here? And it was really the first thing and the catalyst to learning a whole bunch. Right now, reits mutual fund trusts are very common. Two and a half years ago no one knew what the heck that was. I couldn't even find a lawyer in Alberta to put one together for us.

Natasha Phipps:

That's how difficult it was. I actually had to find a lawyer in Ontario, but really we wanted to solve a few things and I hated turning people away that were interested because they weren't accredited. It just didn't feel right Like there's already enough opportunities for the wealthy.

Serena Holmes:

I know what that threshold is, but for someone that's watching that may not understand the difference between eligible and accredited, can you talk about what those numbers look like?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah, so, and and it's, it's, it's a term that you, that you decide. If you meet, you can speak to your accountant about it, but it's basically to determine your ability to lose, really. So accredited investors have a higher income threshold income or net worth and the income threshold is $300,000 as a combined salary, or $200,000 individually for the past two years, or $1 million of liquid financial assets, or $5 million of total assets combined salary, or 200,000 individually for the past two years, or a million dollars of, like, liquid financial assets or $5 million of total assets. So that's a pretty big threshold for a lot of people, especially single people. So the one below that is called eligible and that's a lot more accessible. It's, it's, it's um, an income starting at 75 000 a year, so much more accessible to the amount of people that can invest in these things.

Natasha Phipps:

And the reality is is when you're raising private funds, private securities, uh, you should be aware of these definitions and which one that you fall into, and I and unfortunately I do think a lot of people are getting caught in that, you know, just not understanding that. That's the reason these things are there. It's not to say you can't do this and you can. It's to determine let's not take a risk we can't recover from. Yeah, that's really what it's about.

Natasha Phipps:

And so we wanted to be the opposite of a lot of our competitors which was reserved for accredited investors only, and so to do that in Canada, the only way to do it legally and properly is with a private REIT structure in combination with an offering memorandum.

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah, and if you have those two things, then you can accept money from eligible investors or non-accredited investors and, um, so there's still like requirements for suitability, but they're much more accessible. But the reason people don't go down this road is there's considerable set up fees and costs, but also maintenance. The ongoing maintenance is significant. So we wanted to check all those boxes and, as an investment focused realtor and as an investor, people asked to invest with us all the time, and so this was a way we could make that possible for many people who are interested in this space, with a low minimum of $5,000. We came to market. No one else was accepting $5,000. Everyone told us we were nuts, and the reason for that is to get people started, to get people thinking, to get people dipping a toe, you know, rather than having to save up $100,000 to do something passively. So that's really what started it all was that kind of one property that led me down a you know a path of learning and learning what people needed and wanted in the market.

Serena Holmes:

Now, where does that stand today? Like, where have you gone from that one property to where the portfolio stands at the moment?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah. So we try to target one acquisition a year, which we have done. A little more than that. We've got three acquisitions completed between Calgary and Edmonton. We're buying new or newish real estate. We're really trying to be the boring thing, like we're not taking big risks. It's likeish real estate. We're really trying to be the boring thing, like we're not taking big risks. It's like people, real estate, do it well in good areas. So the second acquisition was also a port sale which was an absolute slam dunk. And the third one which we completed this year is in Edmonton of a and that's a townhouse project and so since kind of two years ago to where we are now, we have about 30 million of real estate and just under 300 investors.

Serena Holmes:

And what does that look like from a passive investment standpoint in terms of the commitment? So how long are you typically looking for people to have their money invested? And then what do those returns look like in terms of regular distributions and then in the long run, like with the equity?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah, so we target a 12 percent return on investment. The money coming in is going directly into real estate. So we are not wanting this to be a short term investment. In fact, in the first three years we are incentivizing people to stay by. Like, in the three years If you exit or redeem there is actually a penalty, and the reason for that is the money is getting straight to work. The downside of that is, you know, it's kind of locked up.

Natasha Phipps:

Now, that being said, you are not stuck. You can apply to redeem at any time. But we tell people, like, give us five years ideally, because, just like buying that condo on your own or that house on your own, we have five-year terms on all of our debt and so the years of zero to five are really acquisition heavy. Like I said, we're trying to do at least one a year years, you know, five to ten. Now we're going to get in that refinance cycle where the cash distributions will actually be considerably higher than they are in the growth period.

Natasha Phipps:

Right? So, just like your single family home, you have to be thinking that way. Yeah, so ideally you're in it with us, for you know the kind of three to five years for sure, but things happen, you know, life happens. You can apply to redeem at any point and there is a process to do that. But you're not like stuck. It isn't like a you know development deal where it's like don't even bother, trying to get out for six years or something like that, we just extended to tell you yes, so and we're, you know, like the boring thing, like people drive by and take a selfie and look at our building.

Natasha Phipps:

They like that they can see, feel and touch it. So it's really the basics of real estate, just trying to do it with a bit of economies of scale, proper management, and also two things is being focused in Alberta, which a lot of people you know want to put their money here in Alberta. I feel really strongly about how well I can manage their money in Alberta just from a property management standpoint. Yeah, just not being, you know, handcuffed by rent control and eviction and you know so I feel like I can take good care of their money because of those things. So we're focused here in Alberta.

Natasha Phipps:

Plus, being a realtor here has already paid off massively in our acquisitions because I can find good opportunities well in advance of the market. There's even a couple we're looking at now that are like no one knows about. So that pays off really well for Welsh and for our investors. And we're continuing to grow and just continuing to kind of share a message as well of accessibility and we share everything. We learn as well, like we had CMHC on a couple of weeks ago and we, you know talk about how to do due diligence, how to raise capital, how to do all kinds of different things. So we're really trying to educate as much as we can as well.

Serena Holmes:

Yeah, no, that's amazing and I think it's something that you know there can never be too much of, right? Because I think for a lot of people that are looking to place money passively, I think you know, this last year or two has really demonstrated just how important it is to work with reputable providers, and the whole concept of a read is to be cash flow positive anyways. So you're in the right vehicle from day one, and obviously the name of this podcast is inspired to invest, so I always like to ask people what is a quote that motivates or inspires them?

Natasha Phipps:

so I this is something. I don't even know who, where this originally came from, but this goes in my head all the time, especially, you know, we all struggle with what goes on in our brain and what we're thinking about, and I repeat this almost every day in my head, and I said it to my daughter yesterday because she was struggling with a few things. But where your energy goes, energy flows, what you are thinking about is where it goes, and that is like a mantra that I repeat over and over again, because it's very easy to doubt yourself, it's very easy to, you know, create a life of doubt or uncertainty, or you know problems when you're focusing on the problems. So that's the thing that I, you know, say the most to myself is yeah, where energy goes, energy flows, that's that's. Or garbage in, garbage out, that's the other thing my old real estate coach taught me that one.

Serena Holmes:

Yeah, no, I love that. Now, is there anything specifically that you wanted to kind of leave with anyone in closing?

Natasha Phipps:

No, the only thing I wanted to mention was we talked about passive investing. Of course, I think you know something we can learn about the volatility we have all seen in the last year is we all know how to analyze a investment property. We've spent a lot of time, energy and money and coaching on how to learn to do this On the passive side. I think we need to consider that more as to how we can you know, what questions do we ask, how do we do diligence on, or how do we do due diligence on, a passive opportunity. So I would encourage people to start thinking about that a little bit more.

Natasha Phipps:

On the past, it's equally important, and a lot of what you learn on the active side of acquiring a property is very applicable to the passive side, and I just feel like there hasn't been as much conversation around that, and so, yeah, that's kind of what I wanted to leave a message with. I actually just put together a guide on this as well, just like some questions I would be asking people and some questions you would consider for yourself as well as an investor, so maybe I can shoot you a link to that if you want to share that?

Serena Holmes:

Yeah, I'd love to include that in the show notes below.

Serena Holmes:

It's actually something that I was talking to a real estate investing focus lawyer about is just, you know, you talk a lot about due diligence but someone just may not know.

Serena Holmes:

Like, yeah, how do you write questions to ask? And I think for me, like a tool that I found to be really interesting in the last year that I didn't know about was an Ontario court case tool, and you can literally look up businesses or people and see if they've had any claims against them or judgments against them, and there are some people that you know they got claims going back 10 to 15 years. Well, if you're considering investing with them, if you knew that they had this track record, I'm sure you would think twice about trusting your money with them, right? So there are a lot of resources available that you know. There's kind of the basics, but you're maybe at the mercy of what they're providing to you, and then there's other layers of the onion that you can kind of peel back to really see if someone's a reputable provider and someone that you want to work with 100% and does that align with you?

Natasha Phipps:

Like I think a lot of it also is like what are you looking for? What is it? Does that align with you or not? And that's a big thing too. So, yeah, I'm happy to provide that. The team just putting it together actually today. So I'll shoot over. Hopefully it's of value to anyone watching.

Serena Holmes:

Great. So for anyone that does want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to get in contact?

Natasha Phipps:

Yeah, I would just go to wellshareca. You can reach out through there through the contact us form. I mean you can also find me on social media as well. I'm pretty, I'm pretty easily found so come reach out anytime.

Serena Holmes:

But if you want to reach out through the website, welshireca would be it great, so we'll include all that in the show notes below, along with your due diligence checklist in that link.

Serena Holmes:

Thanks for taking time out of your busy day to chat with us today and, of course, for anyone that is watching or listening. Thank you for your time as well. If If you've enjoyed this episode, please make sure that you like, comment and subscribe. You can also follow along at Inspired to Invest Podcast on social and, of course, remember when you invest in yourself, the sky's the limit. Thanks again, thank you to ProVenture Real Estate Corp for bringing you this episode of Inspired to Invest. The views represented on this podcast are for general information only and does not constitute investment or other professional advice or an offering of securities. The host and guests featured on Inspired to Invest make no representations as to the performance of any particular investment. Should you decide to make an investment, you are responsible for conducting your own review and analysis. It is recommended that you obtain independent legal, accounting and tax advice from licensed professionals.